I didn’t particularly want this. I didn’t want to argue because I’m a nice guy and I didn’t want to wind up in a situation where I was forced to publicly disgrace someone, but John seems intent on courting disaster. I shall oblige him that much.
Alright, let us begin. To start, I think I should clarify that I’m not in particular a partisan for Dawkins; I haven’t read any of his books yet, though I have seen some lectures and read some articles. Of the Big Four among “atheist” thinkers, I’m most a fan of Sam Harris. It’s his line of thinking I will be drawing on the most here- anyone familiar with Sam will recognize his ideas throughout. I also know he does a much better job than I do of demolishing the intellectual foundations of theism. If anyone is interested in what they read here, I’ll leave a list of books, articles and YouTube stuff worth checking out. Still, a personal debate requires a personal touch, and I will make sure to leave one (in the form a hand print on John’s face- metaphorically speaking).
Now let’s get into it.
My starting point is this: There is no evidence to suggest there is a God. We may want to believe there is a God, we may fall back on that when we can’t explain something (however temporarily), and we may think believing in God is a necessary precursor to morality and is therefore a good thing (it isn’t), but there is not a single iota of evidence anywhere that suggests there is a God. The modern religious have long since stopped even trying to argue this point, they know they can’t. They have now retreated to the argument that just because there’s no evidence to support a God, there’s no evidence to reject a God, and that there’s nothing wrong with believing in God without evidence, anyway. This is not actually true, either.
I am called an atheist, but I think the term is a misnomer. I am a rational person. That’s it, nothing more to it. I am a reasonable, rational human being, and I think that any claim made with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence.
I am going to base my argument around responding to the accusation that Richard Dawkins is a “secular fundamentalist”- that he is somehow, in his devotion to reason, just as guilty of dogmatic thinking as the Bin Laden’s of the world. I think this is a rather silly claim to make. Let me show you why.
John accuses Dawkins of being a “secular fundamentalist.”
The essential point John makes here is one made against atheists all the time: namely that atheism is just as dogmatic and intransigent as religious faith, it is, in fact, just another religion. Think about how the religious accuse science of being “arrogant,” and again, of accusing a science and rationality oriented view of being equally dogmatic and faith-based as religion. This is false; it’s not even hard to show why.
Let me pause first to point out that there are three arguments for religion.
1) A specific religion is literally True.
a. I think we can dismiss this one out of hand, don’t you? Even if we knew for a fact that one religion was true, which we don’t, they all claim a sole monopoly on truth. Any logical religious person should consider his or herself damned strictly as a matter of probability.
2) Religion is useful.
a. This claim is usually made in reference to religion’s function as our great moral teacher. It’s also false.
3) Even if religion is bad, atheism is worse.
a. This argument also completely falls apart once it’s examined.
Keep these three categories in mind as we move on, and whenever you hear a similar debate in the future.
Science is not dogmatism, it is not based on faith. Science can’t be faith-based or “arrogant” like religion, because the fundamental nature of science is only to say something is true when it has been proven true. That’s it. If you claim something, back it up. That’s all there is to a rational lifestyle.
You say people can fly by flapping their wings? Prove it.
You’re telling me there’s a gold brick the size of a house in your possession? Show me.
Native Americans have reddish skin because God cursed them and made them that way? Something claimed with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence.
Science refuses to answer a question, yes or no, until the evidence decisively favors one or the other response. What, exactly, is dogmatic about that? Where is the fundamentalism in asking authority to justify itself? I am often amused when the religious accuse atheism of being responsible for the crimes of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Do you really think an excess of reason and rationality was the problem in the USSR? Are you honestly going to argue that the problem in Nazi Germany was an overly skeptical stance towards authority? Don’t embarrass yourself.
But, more generally, religion is a system built on preserving its own interpretation of the Truth, a truth that happens to be patently false. Everyone in the religious establishment is working to preserve the lie. Scientists, on the other hand, have a little thing called peer-review. Politely put, they critique each other and look for errors, although I hear they are really devoted to tearing into each other’s research. This is not an environment conducive to maintaining institutional falsehoods. Anyway, while rationality refuses to guess, religion asks you to answer the question- without any evidence at all. What’s worse, it saddles that answer with all of its rules, regulations, and commandments to certain styles of behavior- many of them flagrantly bigoted and immoral.
The religious make the mistake of arguing that our beliefs are a matter of personal choice. They aren’t. If I want you to believe something, I will present you with evidence and you will helplessly believe me, because you will be carried along by the logic that is proof. There won’t be any choice about it. I want you to believe that I stole your shoes. Want proof? Here’s a streaming video of me stealing your shoes.
Lacking the ability to defend the factual integrity of their claims, the religious fall back on all sorts of logical tricks. But it’s easy to see how specious and empty these arguments are, just put them in any other possible context.
I believe there is a 90 pound diamond buried in my yard.
- I cannot prove it, but it’s not like you arrogant scientists can prove it’s not there.
- My sense of morality is based on believing a 90 pound diamond is in my yard.
- There is evidence that the diamond is there, it’s just intangible. I sort of feel like the diamond is there.
- It’s not that I’ve failed to support the diamond, it’s that you’ve failed to imagine it.
Grandiose, unsupported statements like this disqualify a person from taking any responsible position in our society- Unless it’s about religion. Change the topic to religion, and suddenly the door is flung open to all sorts of absurdities. Change the topic to religion, and suddenly you can find a 21 year old film student decrying Richard Dawkins’ deplorable ignorance. How silly.
Ultimately, however, the belief in God is not the problem. It is religion’s belief that it knows the Mind of God. It’s not so much that people believing in a vague notion of an insubstantial force of goodness holding the universe together is a bad thing, more that the belief obligates people to set aside hours of their day for rituals, to give their money to the Church, to mutilate their sons and daughters (especially their daughters), to cover up and otherwise sequester their women, and to actively seek out global domination. If you think religions don’t have a will to dominate, pick up a Koran some time. Or a Bible.
[But Dave, there are some good moral lessons in the Bible!! LOL!!!]
I agree, like any man-made work of literature, there are some interesting stories in the Bible, and some valuable moral lessons. And like any other work of man, there are also some horrible things in there, as well. As someone who denies the divinity of this book, I am free to pick and choose which lessons I take with me, like this:
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
- Jesus Christ, Luke 6:31
and those which I leave behind, like this:
'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them- bring them here and kill them in front of me."
- Jesus Christ, Luke 19
The religious are not free to pick and choose. Either the Bible is the perfect, unalterable word of God or it isn’t. The holy books themselves claim utter perfection, and a monopoly on truth. Either you are a real Christian or a real Muslim and you believe it, or you are a lapsed Christian, or an apostate Muslim- you are a modern, reasonable person who (at least subconsciously) realizes their own freedom away from false claims of divine truth and are just unwilling to leave behind the tangential benefits of religion, such as community building and holidays. All you have to do is accept that all these nice things can be found anywhere; they can be found without faith.
So, where are we? We’ve discussed Theist Argument 1, a religion might really be true, and dismissed it. Argument 3, atheism is worse than religion, has been dealt with, and along the way we’ve discussed why religious belief can’t hide behind the shield of simply being harmless. As for argument 2, religion is useful even if it’s based on nothing, it has been addressed. But I want to make a final point about why I am opposed to religion’s stranglehold on moral authority.
By making its unsupportable claims about God and the afterlife, etc, religion divorces the concept of morality from the concepts of human happiness and suffering. If a person truly believes that they have an eternal soul, and that this soul lives on for eternity after death, and that this eternity will either be one of bliss in Heaven or suffering in Hell depending on their actions in relation to the Church’s teachings in life- these are beliefs that have a pretty profound impact on a person’s view of morality. If it is possible for me to say something to your child that is so damning that it risks their eternal soul, then it’s not just their life that is at stake but rather an eternity of suffering that hangs in the balance. The crimes that condemn a person to hell range from abortion to calling God the wrong name. People vote based on these beliefs. People legislate based on these beliefs. The integrity of our division of church and state will always be at risk as long as people believe their child can learn things in school that will risk their souls. The Church’s repressive teachings regarding human sexuality matter. And anybody who has heard the term “suicide bombing” is educated enough to know that the nature of a person’s beliefs regarding the afterlife and the metaphysics of martyrdom do matter to the rest of us. Especially if those beliefs are based on NOTHING.
Now then, let’s address some of John’s specific points.
If Dawkins isn't a politician, why does he write books called The God Delusion? He is clearly concerned with the fate of humanity, and he actively cultivates a strong following, so he is necessarily a politician.
Wow. John’ starts off strong with this doozy of an argument. Yes, Dawkins did write a book (with a title!) and he does have opinions. He even might have a following. I guess that makes him a politician, just like Clark’s Professor Peet, and Angelina Jolie. I’m going to dignify John’s “point” with a response, but this does not bode well for the quality of what is to follow. Anyhow, the thing about Dawkins is that, just like Professor Peet he writes books and go on the lecture circuit, but also like Peet, he has no ambition to power. He has never run for office, nor expressed an interest to do so. I’m sure he appreciates that his ideas are influential, but that doesn’t make him a politician. (Frankly Dawkins would probably find government work tedious if not downright distasteful).
I admire his social advocacy; I deplore his ignorance.
That’s sort of the problem in a nutshell right here, isn’t it? It’s ironic that the religious make a major point of calling the nonreligious ignorant, and conversely arrogant regarding their beliefs. It would be laughable it weren’t so grossly misguided.
Think about the claims about specific, highly involved sciences that are routinely made by the religious community: “Gosh, Dr. Paleontologist, you sure seem to have an awful lot of bones over there, but you obviously haven’t done your reading- everyone knows the Earth is only 6,000 years old! And that God made the Earth in six days!” or “Gee Mr. Hawking, you seem pretty sure about your theory of the universe, and you have some nifty charts, but that’s not what the Bible says is true. I don’t understand how you could be so ignorant.” Christ.
There are more authoritative sources than biologists to determine whether or not God exists, [Are you suggesting the Bible? Again, this line of thinking would be funny if it wasn’t so scary to think that a seemingly ordinary person we habitually spend time with could actually believe this.] and whether or not the factuality of the existence of a God is truly consequential. Even though this isn't an atheist's responsibility, if you could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a God does not exist, how many minds would you really change? I'm confident that many religious folk have faiths so strong (and in some cases, stubborn) that they would continue to follow their rituals and largely ignore your proof.
I think this is a good time to mention this:
I had hoped that I showed it wasn’t so much that I lacked the intellectual capacity for religion so much as I do not require the intellectual crutch of a religion telling me what I should be believe (and, incidentally, controlling all the rest of my behavior as well). Religion has no monopoly on spirituality, nor does it require a belief in god to experience transcendent states of consciousness. Sam's favorite example here is Buddhism, and I’m happy to say I’ve been able to explore some of what he is talking about myself here. Buddhist teachings revolve around meditation. Meditation looks like a breathing exercise, but it's actually a mental discipline exercise. Meditation is a practice designed to focus one's consciousness on the exact present moment, free of the distractions of random thoughts (eg, What should eat for lunch today? Does Janice think I’m hot? That’s a good idea for a movie. I love Tim Burton). We all have thoughts that constantly arise, uncontrolled, from our minds. These random thoughts distract us from the simple act of experiencing our lives in the present moment to the fullest capacity. In a sense, meditation is an attempt to become more alive than average for a human being. Having meditated, I’ve caught moments of clarity through the practice, and it is almost euphoric. You really do feel connected to the whole of existence in an intangible, compelling way. You feel good about yourself, and about everything around you, which makes you (at least in that moment) a far more kind, compassionate, and frankly deeper person. and There’s no need to believe in god to explore this spirituality. And no dietary restrictions, either. And women may participate as equals. Whoa.
As for John, his argument seems to be "You just don't get it, bro. You and Dawkins may say some things, and I might not be able to respond with anything meaningful, but you Just. Don’t. Get it. Nyah nyah nyah."
Oh well, can't argue with nothing.
Would that make them ignorant? Many religious people are already plenty ignorant.
I agree.
However, I'm also certain that a particularly educated, practiced, and insightful group of religious thinkers can and have already addressed the factuality of the existence of God, and, in simple terms, scientific evidence may simply not be required for their faiths to be valid. There are clearly limits to every field of study, and religion and biology are both obviously limited fields.
This is the point, right there, isn’t it? Yes, evolutionary biology is a limited field, as is religion. But biology limits itself to making claims only about biology, and even then limits itself to making claims only about what it can conclusively prove. Religion makes claims about every facet of our entire lives, and considers the burden of proof tantamount to heresy (and occasionally punishable by death). And religion doesn’t stop there. Not only does it makes claims about the whole of existence with no way of backing it up, but it expects, or demands, the rest of us to bend to accommodate it.
Examples: According to the Bible, male homosexuality is an abomination (Yes, the Christian God does, in fact, hate fags). This unfounded opinion occasionally has social and political consequences.
We can’t exercise our freedom of expression to draw a picture of Mohammad, because he is a holy man and it is forbidden, apparently for everyone. Case closed.
- The West is so imperialist and hateful to Muslims it voluntarily censored itself so as not to sully the image of the man who said this:
o “The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree.”
Dawkins's choice to not believe in a God is not the issue; rather, he is apparently unable to gather the intangible evidence that inspires one to build a strong, healthy faith, which is necessarily tempered by reason and skepticism, and thus he is unable to imagine any compelling reason for him to believe in a God. If my belief in God is a failure to reason, his disbelief in God is a failure to imagine. I would never ban atheism, but Dawkins all but demands the burning of all holy texts and is guilty of the same crime against humanity so many religious fundamentalists commit: hate.
Dawkins is a lot things, but he isn’t a hater. (Christopher Hitchens might be, but he’s never said anything even as bad as The Prophet, has he?) There’s nothing very emotional or vindictive about what Dawkins says at all. Frankly, everyone reading this sentence knows what it’s like to be an atheist like me or Dawkins. This is because everyone is an atheist when it comes to Zeus. Ask yourself, do you believe in Zeus? Why not? What’s wrong with believing in Zeus, and what’s wrong with orienting one’s life around Zeus’ commandments? Does anyone have a problem with their children being forced to perform rituals to Apollo in school? It’s a simple question. It isn’t as if some theologian in the 3rd Century conclusively proved that Zeus wasn’t real, but the One God is. There’s nothing hateful about applying the same standards of judgment to Yahweh in addition to Athena.
The “all but” is important here- it’s a trick like the phrase “some people say” on Fox News. Dawkins doesn’t demand the burning of holy texts at all. It’s not really rational to call for the destruction of knowledge and art, that’s religion’s bag. Nothing would be gained by burning all our Bibles, and it would be a great loss to the world if all the nice mosques we built over the centuries were destroyed. That’s not a very rational way to behave. But, lacking an understanding of rationality, the religious simply tar the rest of us with examples of how they would behave. “Hate.” Ha.
(When it comes to me, the only hate I have is the hate I reserve for the endless onslaught of Ron Paul spam clogging my email, and now my Wall, as well. As for Dawkins, he claims to be a fan of plenty of religiously-themed and generated art. Just because it’s based on a grandiose claim doesn’t mean it isn’t pretty).
This is why Dawkins is a secular fundamentalist. Some Christians think raising children in any religion other than their own is tantamount to child abuse; Dawkins thinks similarly of all religion. These two ideas reek of the other's ideological fascism.
Compassionate, democratic dialogue requires the ability to imagine, at least for an instant, that your opponent is actually right. Dawkins cannot do this. Christopher Hitchens can't either; conveniently, his brother Peter Hitchens is quite adept at refuting his brother and problematizing Dawkins's ideology. I can provide you sources which will further illustrate my point; if you enjoy listening to British brothers fight, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZGWMC7DZQ0
Again, there is no “ideology” in question. There is no atheism. Only rational discussion. And I’m familiar with the Hitchens brothers; don’t think I’m the one who needs to do more reading.
A belief in the supposition that religion is the root of all evil requires that one not distinguish between politics and religion whatsoever. It requires that one also believe that religion and politics are fundamentally linked; however, this is fallacious. It was not any Church that create the atomic bomb, it was not any Church that invaded Iraq.
I agree with your contention that a society founded on religion would be incapable of pursuing such an intellectually rigorous field as nuclear physics.
But this is a good time to point out that no one has ever said violent conflict will die out with religion. Only one major source of violent conflict will die out with religion. To argue that there is no point in outgrowing religious faith simply because other sources of conflict exist is a total nonstarter. Take it in another context: “There’s no point in curing your cancer- something else is just going to kill you anyway.” Not to compare religion to cancer or anything, but the logical principle is the same. Oh, and by the way, our enemies in World War II, the Japanese, were motivated by an extreme religious ideology.
And “fallacious”? Nice SAT word.
It was not any Church that started WWI, or WWII, and it was not any Church that started the war in Vietnam. It was not any Church that caused the tragedies at Abu Ghraib, nor was it any Church that created an environment in which Blackwater could thrive.
Your statement that events such as World War II and the Iraq war are somehow free of religious influence is very daring. I don’t even have time to get in to everything that’s wrong with this, but suffice to say that I don’t think anyone will believe that religion is somehow free of the oceans of blood on its hands.
For all his talk of God, George Bush acts more like an atheist concerned only with material success than he does a Christian concerned with serving God. So do many Christians. Bush himself has mocked the beliefs of his religious base.
Your desperation is really starting to show.
So while we live in a Western society that is largely secular in our government, we still cause a lot of the grief politicized zealots caused back in the day of the Crusades. I am an advocate for separation of Church and State, but also for freedom to, of and from religion. I am not so convinced that Dawkins, nor many other fundamentalists from different dispositions, are as concerned as I am about freedom.
Freedom indeed. This from a person who argued his heart out to defend the Confederacy and its “right” to enslave a race of people. The only thing noteworthy about these arguments is your own awe inspiring talent for self delusion.
I’m done here. This is twice now we’ve argued about something, and twice now that I’ve completely wrecked you. Feel free to bring it on again, but only if you’re a glutton for more pain.
- Eli Larson
Further Reading.
To anyone interested in what we’ve been discussing here, I recommend this stuff:
Sam Harris, The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation
- this is a great primer video that makes all my arguments better than I can:
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM
Christopher Hitchens, God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
Daniel Dennet, Breaking the Spell
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Infidel
Irshad Manji, The Trouble with Islam
God, The Bible
God, The Koran
Soygal Rinphoche, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying
Sakyong Mipham, Turning the Mind into an Ally
And, finally, though I have not read this book personally, perhaps you will all join me in ordering it so we can discuss its contents a little better
Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion